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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from australia for science and reason

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[Applause]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 688

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for the 12th of december 2021

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richard saunders coming to you from

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sydney australia where it's still not

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summer yet i don't know where summer

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where are you

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it's a bit cool it's a bit great it's a

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bit cloudy

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actually i don't mind too much i

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i prefer winter over summer but still

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come on it's got to be here somewhere

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coming up on this week's show we're

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going to kick off with an interview with

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michael marshall from the good thinking

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society in the uk editor of the uk

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version of the skeptic

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he's going to tell us about the recent

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occum awards

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the occam awards and the rusty razor

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sort of the cheers and jeers

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for people in the scientific community

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and for people who deserve a bit of a

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jeer

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every now and then the rusty razor is

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sort of like our

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bent spoon award here in australia or in

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times past the pegasus prize from james

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randy

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find out more with michael marshall

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then after that it's the book of tim

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with tim mendom a bit of a different

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book of tim this week tim

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calls in to tell us what's in the latest

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issue of the skeptic magazine the

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journal from australian skeptics and

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upcoming in the issue which you can

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subscribe and get right now via

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via email

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is the report the official report on the

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great australian prediction projects

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also in the magazine vaccination myths

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including

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the nuremberg code

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some anti-vaxxers are wailing and

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whining and whinging about their rights

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with the in respect to nuremberg code

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and the magazine covers that

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looks at the 10th anniversary of the

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friends of science and medicine

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and how you can subscribe all that

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coming up with tim mendom in the book of

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tim

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then to round off the show the trove

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segment this week looks at seances

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and quite frankly it's one of the more

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bizarre troves i've ever recorded

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you'll find out why

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mysterious

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seances

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contacting

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the dead

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and somewhere in this week's show i

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think the skeptical fairy godmother

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angel from the internet

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might fly by well that's enough from me

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at the moment

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so what's that

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moored it's more the cat what do you

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want

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skeptic zone listen

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come on oh she's somehow got into the

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studio that's a microphone do you want

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to say hello

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isn't it typical

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you sit there in your mouth for your

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breakfast in your mouth your dinner but

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on the internet say something

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now it's time

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for me to run downstairs

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and uh what will i have this week i'll

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have some rice

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some nice spicy rice

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and dream of

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happy times

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by the ocean something like that that

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would be nice well i'm doing that i hope

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[Music]

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and joining me now it's our old friend

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the director of the good thinking

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society all the way from liverpool in

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the uk it's michael marshall hi marsh

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hi richard hi nice to nice to catch up

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it's been a little while it has been a

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little while you i i think you really

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are an honorary reporter on the skeptic

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zone because over the years and years

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and years if people look back over the

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archives they can see that you pop up at

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least once twice maybe three times a

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year to give your reports from the uk

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and i contacted you because i woke up

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just in time to miss the announcements

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because they were done some crazy hour

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in australia of the occam awards now

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before we get to the occam

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awards for this year can you give our

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listeners a little bit of background

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about though what the occum awards are

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all about yeah absolutely so the occam

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awards are awards um given out by the

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skeptic magazine uh in the uk which i'm

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i've been the editor now for just over a

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year and it's actually the tenth year of

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the occams they were given out the first

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ever qed in 2011. and it's our chance to

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to recognize people who've made a an

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outstanding contribution to skepticism

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in the last year in particular and kind

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of overall um so

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over the years we've had different types

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of awards we've had awards for podcasts

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and videos and things but but since

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we've relaunched the magazine in

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september what we try and do is we try

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and essentially pick out um an

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individual or group or organization

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that's been outstanding for skeptical

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activism over the past 12 months and

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then we have our uh our flip side of

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that which is our rusty razor award

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which is for the worst pseudoscience of

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the previous 12 months so very much like

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the bent spoon award it's our it's our

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opportunity to shine a spotlight on some

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uh peddlers of pseudoscience who who

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really deserve a little bit of light

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shone on them yeah it's giving out

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cheers to the people who deserve um

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cheers and jeers to the people who

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deserve a good year

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before we get to the to the um i don't

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know how you describe it the the more

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the interesting one of the the rusty

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uh razor which is our

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your equivalent to our ben spoon who are

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the people that who you

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single out this year to uh to cheer on

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well we had um quite a lot of uh

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nominations because all of our awards

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are nominated for by the skeptical

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community and then the panel from the

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skeptic chooses from among those

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nominations and we had lots of really

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really strong nominations for people

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who'd um spend a lot of their time

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looking at kind of corvette

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misinformation and the various things

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that have come up around there um but in

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the end we decided the person to give

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the award to will be dr elizabeth bick

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and i don't if you know elizabeth picks

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work but she's

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absolutely prolific in um uh identifying

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and exposing research fraud so looking

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through academic papers to sort of

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forensically examine the imagery and the

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data in order to point out where there's

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been image manipulation where there's

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been um plagiarism where there's been

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data faked and where this is actually

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going into the you know the scientific

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record why these are published papers

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because

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what's really important is the work that

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we do is trying to sort of keep

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pseudoscience out of society and sort of

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promote science and what's really

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impressive about the elizabeth's work is

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that she's cleaning up science so the

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thing that we're pointing at and saying

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this is how it should be she's making

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sure that is that it's getting better

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and that it's uh that it's improving and

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that people can't get away with passing

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fraudulent research off as legitimate

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yeah so she's and i think in the last

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eight years she's she's uncovered

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something like 5 000 papers

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many of which she's been able to push

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and actually have them retracted and

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removed from the record so she's been

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incredibly prolific and she spends a lot

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of time teaching people the methods that

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she uses to identify the fraud and the

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the mistaken data and various other um

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flaws in the way that data is presented

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and published yeah yeah what what a

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worthy winner because she's doing an

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invaluable job because that's what

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science is all about it's it's about

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housekeeping it's about being sure it's

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double checking and pointing out when

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there are errors and frauds and and all

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the rest of it within

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our own community it's it's very

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important

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yeah i mean we always say that science

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is uh it needs to be and it aims and

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strives to be self-correcting and uh dr

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elizabeth bick is is part of that

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self-correction mechanism of science

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it's something that she she sort of took

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on for herself as an interest and then

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turned it into something of a of a kind

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of i'm not sure it's a full-time project

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but certainly a a project she invests a

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huge amount of time and uh and energy

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into and she's having a quite a

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significant amount of impact so that and

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that's what we look for really when we

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look for a recipient of our awards we

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look for um what is their reach what is

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their impact and what is their relevance

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so how far is their work spreading and

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what effect is it having on the world is

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it making a real world difference and in

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the case of this year's recipient we can

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say it absolutely is um and even in the

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last year uh a year or two um she's

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received quite a lot of negative

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attention for her work from the people

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whose work she's pointing out people

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who's who's uh you know fraudulent or

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mistaken or faked data she's

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highlighting and she actually was

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threatened with the legal action from

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the recipient of last year's rusty razor

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award professor didier route for his uh

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his his work promoting

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hydroxychloroquine so it all kind of

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comes back around and and links all back

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up wow

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[Laughter]

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that's fascinating you're right it's

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and so while elizabeth pick uh was the

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recipient of the awards there were other

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honorary mentions that were that really

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sort of ran her close to the awards so

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um your very own geared mk from

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australian skeptics um was one of our

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strong nominations for his work in

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especially around ivermectin and the

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various studies that have turned out to

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be to be fraudulent there um and another

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person who got a really strong

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nomination was the bbc's misinformation

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reporter marianna spring oh yeah she's

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done the skeptics in the pub talk for us

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and she spent

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the entire pandemic

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delving into some of the worst places

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online to understand what are people

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saying in the anti-vaxx movement what

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are people saying in the kind of the

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online conspiracy theory

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ecosystem and in doing so especially

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because she's a female journalist she

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gets a huge amount of flack a huge

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amount of abuse a huge amount of

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quite threatening uh communications her

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way and she continues to do fantastic

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work so she was a really strong

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nomination too but uh in the end we

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decided that uh elizabeth would be the

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winner for 2021. all right now let's get

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to the

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razor again because we've had such a

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year and and corvid has dominated it we

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the the nominations were dominated by by

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people who'd spread corvette

286
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misinformation and so there were people

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like yaya bolsonaro from brazil there

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was um uh joe rogan the the biggest

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podcaster in the world for saying that

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uh he can cure cover he he was able to

291
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treat his cobra with a range of uh

292
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nonsensical uh treatments people like

293
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brett weinstein who's promoted uh those

294
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are the kind of misinformation and

295
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treatments uh around around culvert um

296
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but in the end what we thought was all

297
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those different people you know yaya

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bolsonaro might be the head of a large

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country but he doesn't have scientific

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credibility and joe rogan's got 11

301
00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:03,120
million listeners but he doesn't have

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any um

303
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he didn't have the the conferred

304
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legitimacy of a scientific background um

305
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and so what we thought with the

306
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anti-vaxx movement and the way that

307
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anti-vax movement has been so energized

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by some of the sorts of misinformation

309
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it's the people who present themselves

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as whistleblowers from a formal

311
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:21,600
scientific background that i think

312
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provide the most um the most effective

313
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:26,079
ammunition and so for that reason the

314
00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:27,360
person that we know that we've given the

315
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:30,399
rusty razor to this year is dr mike eden

316
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:32,800
who was a he was a research scientist

317
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:35,920
who's vice president of pfizer's

318
00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:37,440
allergies and respiratory division at

319
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:39,519
one point um and then he left fizer in

320
00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:42,160
2011 and subsequently he's been a

321
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:43,680
relentless source of covert

322
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:46,240
misinformation so right at the start the

323
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:47,920
pandemic he was saying you know i work

324
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for pfizer i know my way around

325
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:51,279
respiratory diseases and i can tell you

326
00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:53,519
that masks have got no effect on cover

327
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:55,760
transmission that lockdowns will do

328
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:57,440
nothing to slow transmission that

329
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:59,120
there's no such thing as an ace

330
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:01,519
asymptomatic spread of uh disease in

331
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:04,000
this way um in october 2020 he wrote an

332
00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:05,600
article for the daily mill where he

333
00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:07,440
predicted there would be no second wave

334
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:09,680
of covert 19 infections or deaths that

335
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:11,680
the deaths would just fizzle out in like

336
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:14,000
october 2020 and since then in the uk a

337
00:12:18,310 --> 00:12:16,079
further 100 000 people have died and at

338
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:18,320
no point has he changed his tunes once

339
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:20,079
the vaccines became available it all

340
00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:22,000
became about how the vaccines weren't

341
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:23,600
safe the vaccines didn't work how we

342
00:12:27,509 --> 00:12:25,360
shouldn't take them he even tried to get

343
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:27,519
the the trials for vaccines halted

344
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,639
because he claimed that that the

345
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,320
vaccines would cause infertility in

346
00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:32,560
women and he said at the time he had no

347
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:34,800
scientific evidence to suggest that was

348
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:37,279
the case but that claim went viral on

349
00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:39,040
social media and i think there's a study

350
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,880
in the us that found 13 percent of

351
00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:42,720
unvaccinated people had heard of his

352
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:44,160
claim and believed his claim about

353
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,760
fertility and something like seven

354
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:47,760
percent of all people in the uk had

355
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:50,079
heard the same thing so

356
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:52,720
this is someone who uses the the white

357
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:54,880
court of his former career to push

358
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,040
misinformation at every stage about the

359
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,279
pandemic and when you spend a lot of

360
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:01,040
time looking at the anti-vaccine

361
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:02,560
movement and hanging around in

362
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:04,880
anti-vaccine telegram spaces like i do

363
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:07,440
his name comes up relentlessly as well

364
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:09,200
this fisa whistleblower this guy worked

365
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,720
for pfizer this guy worked in uh

366
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:12,959
allergies and respiratory disease so he

367
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:14,720
knows what he's talking about and he can

368
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:16,560
blow the whistle in all of this when in

369
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:19,120
fact what he's spreading is is the

370
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:20,720
complete opposite of scientifically

371
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:23,120
valid it's it's misinformation designed

372
00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:25,760
to scare monger um he said that corvid

373
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,320
19 vaccines were 50 times more likely to

374
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,720
kill children than corvid was which is

375
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:32,480
not true at all he said that the

376
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,160
vaccines are part of a serious attempt

377
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,480
at mass depopulation and that they're a

378
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:38,560
deliberate execution potentially of

379
00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:40,880
billions of people this is the the most

380
00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:43,120
blatant of pseudosciences from someone

381
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:44,959
that people take seriously because of

382
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:46,240
where he used to work and what he used

383
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:48,320
to do well this there's nothing new

384
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,240
under the sun marsh in 2004

385
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:55,279
from memory 2003 2004

386
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:58,720
uh a friend and i attended a

387
00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:00,639
public talk here given by the australian

388
00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:02,240
vaccination network and one of the

389
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:04,639
speakers said and we haven't recorded

390
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,120
that the world health organization put

391
00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:09,680
hitler and stalin in the shade and

392
00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:11,920
vaccines are a deliberate attempt to

393
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:13,760
depopulate africa

394
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:15,199
nothing's new yeah and nothing's new

395
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:17,199
don't say and that was what a decade ago

396
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:19,760
two or 15 years ago and the world

397
00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:22,639
population hasn't been decimated uh we

398
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:24,160
haven't all died off it's funny i had

399
00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:25,760
exactly the same i had a similar

400
00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:27,360
conversation on a recent be reasonable

401
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:29,760
with one of the people who's um again

402
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:30,880
really prolific in spreading

403
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:32,399
misinformation online a guy called mark

404
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,959
steele um and he was saying that in when

405
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:36,959
i spoke to him in july he was absolutely

406
00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:38,480
certain that between the vaccines and

407
00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:41,040
the 5g the government would kill 70 of

408
00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:43,519
people in the uk by christmas yeah and

409
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:45,680
it's nearly christmas and if unless

410
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:46,800
there is a

411
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:49,040
mass die off next week yeah uh in which

412
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,160
case i will hold my hands up and

413
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:52,079
apologize um he's going to be wrong and

414
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:54,240
he it's not like he's going to say oh i

415
00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:55,839
was wrong about that he'll just move on

416
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:57,920
to his next claim and never acknowledge

417
00:15:01,269 --> 00:15:00,000
um that what he said never came to pass

418
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:01,279
and i'm sure the same is true of the

419
00:15:04,949 --> 00:15:03,040
australian vaccination skeptics network

420
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:04,959
yes you're absolutely right and there

421
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:07,199
are people here in this country who are

422
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:10,480
convinced that everybody who's had the

423
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:12,720
the vaccine like myself

424
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,279
will within the next year die because

425
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:18,000
it'll kill us and all the unvaccinated

426
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:20,240
people who they're calling pure bloods i

427
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:21,040
think

428
00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:22,800
at the moment will be running around

429
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:25,199
saying there i told you so and and and

430
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:27,040
all the rest of it we live in

431
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:29,279
interesting times we really do

432
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:31,120
absolutely absolutely and you know i can

433
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:33,199
understand why people think that it's

434
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:34,720
it's it's

435
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:36,079
it's all very scary what's been

436
00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:37,600
happening it's all very uncertain we've

437
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:38,959
never gone through something like this

438
00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:41,279
before when your life suddenly gets

439
00:15:45,670 --> 00:15:43,279
upended by something as dramatic as all

440
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:45,680
of this um it's very tempting and

441
00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:47,920
seductive to turn to these kind of

442
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:49,759
claims that say they can make sense of

443
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:51,040
what's going on and say that there's a

444
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:53,120
very clear plan to it all and you don't

445
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:55,120
have to do that dramatic intervention of

446
00:15:58,550 --> 00:15:56,880
having a vaccine and all those type of

447
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:58,560
things because it's actually going to be

448
00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,959
fine um i can see why some people

449
00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:02,720
would be seduced by that and would think

450
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:04,880
actually yes that makes sense because i

451
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:06,560
don't want this to be true and so i'm

452
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:07,680
going to believe the person saying that

453
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,440
it isn't true yeah well

454
00:16:13,749 --> 00:16:11,279
i don't want it to be true either but

455
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:13,759
there you go marsh where can people go

456
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:15,920
online to find out more about the good

457
00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:19,199
thinking and the skeptic from the uk

458
00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:21,240
yeah sure so for the skeptic you go to

459
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:23,360
skeptic.org.uk and we've been publishing

460
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,800
you know three or four stories a week

461
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:26,480
for for more than a year now of just

462
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:27,920
from all around the sort of skeptical

463
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:29,360
community lots of different articles

464
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,360
from lots of different uh perspectives

465
00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:33,440
on a huge range of topics and if you

466
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,639
want to find out the work that i'm doing

467
00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:36,160
at the good thinking society and go to

468
00:16:40,629 --> 00:16:38,959
good thinking society.org

469
00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:40,639
excellent and folks just after this

470
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:42,720
interview i'll play the promotion for

471
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:44,800
that uh fascinating endlessly

472
00:16:48,790 --> 00:16:47,279
fascinating podcast from marsh called

473
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:48,800
be reasonable

474
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:51,680
marsh thank you once again uh i hope you

475
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:53,759
and your family have a happy christmas

476
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:55,040
coming up and a

477
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:56,240
brighter

478
00:17:01,590 --> 00:17:00,000
year thanks richard and you too i hope

479
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:01,600
you have a fantastic christmas too and

480
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:04,720
let's uh let's hope that 2022 um sees uh

481
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:06,799
some at some point a return to relative

482
00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:08,799
normality that's that's what all of us

483
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:10,959
are hoping for i think

484
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:13,199
indeed we are thank you

485
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:18,970
[Applause]

486
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:31,590
be reasonable as the interview show from

487
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:33,840
the merseyside skeptic society where

488
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:35,280
each month i speak to someone about

489
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:37,360
their fringe beliefs over the years i've

490
00:17:41,909 --> 00:17:39,760
spoken to psychics ufo believers moon

491
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,919
landing deniers flat earthers hollow

492
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:43,600
earthers and all manner of unusual

493
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:45,600
conspiracy theorists but i've also

494
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:47,280
talked to aids denialists white

495
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,919
supremacists gay conversion therapists i

496
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:51,520
even interviewed jim humble the inventor

497
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:53,600
of miracle mineral supplement a form of

498
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:54,880
industrial police that he and his

499
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:57,520
followers used to treat cancer and hiv

500
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:59,600
this isn't a debate show my aim isn't to

501
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:01,679
win an argument but when we listen to

502
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,080
how people promote and justify the ideas

503
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:06,160
that we disagree with even the dangerous

504
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,919
ones i think we become much more

505
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:10,160
effective at countering those ideas if

506
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,200
that sounds like something you'd be

507
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,360
interested in look for be reasonable on

508
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:15,280
apple podcasts and everywhere else the

509
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:27,990
[Music]

510
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:29,350
and now

511
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:31,470
a reading from the book of tim

512
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:34,240
[Music]

513
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:37,000
with tim menden

514
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:43,440
[Music]

515
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:45,760
and joining me now for the book of tim

516
00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:47,919
this week it's not tim reading from the

517
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:50,480
book of tim well sort of is tim bendum

518
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:51,919
you're going to be telling us about the

519
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:54,480
upcoming issue of the skeptic magazine

520
00:19:00,150 --> 00:18:55,520
hello

521
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:00,160
magazine is just out and this completes

522
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:03,039
41 years of our magazine that's

523
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:04,160
incredible

524
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,600
it's impressive isn't it yeah we're the

525
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:07,600
second oldest english language skeptical

526
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,440
publication in the world

527
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:11,600
so yeah and we're still going strong

528
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:12,640
which is great

529
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:14,880
but uh every year uh about this time

530
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,520
because we sum up our convention which

531
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:19,520
we just had as you have told the

532
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:21,760
listeners in november

533
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:23,039
and so we've got the coverage there

534
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:24,480
looking at all the presentations and

535
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:26,799
that sort of thing and there's a whole

536
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:28,799
lot of them was very good wide range of

537
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,960
topics et cetera so but one of those

538
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,640
presentations was from someone named

539
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,320
richard saunders i don't know if you

540
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:37,200
know him you know no no no okay no no

541
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:38,720
he's a pretty strange character anyway

542
00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:40,480
so probably advisable

543
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:42,080
but of course richard spoke about

544
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:44,400
briefly well over half an hour 40

545
00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:46,240
minutes whatever it was yeah

546
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:47,679
about the great australian psychic

547
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:49,360
prediction project

548
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:50,400
and that was great and that was

549
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:51,760
interesting and he sort of you know gave

550
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:54,400
the the danima sort of exposing the fact

551
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:56,559
that only that psychics in australia

552
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:58,640
over this 20-year period only got 11

553
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:01,120
percent of their predictions right

554
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:02,559
so but

555
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:04,400
richard has written that richard has

556
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:07,520
written a much longer report has he

557
00:20:13,270 --> 00:20:10,640
he has it is extensive it is a learned

558
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:13,280
paper in fact that um we are running in

559
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:14,960
the magazine it takes up a fair

560
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:16,720
percentage of the magazine too i should

561
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,080
add but this is

562
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:20,559
a pretty much important document because

563
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:22,720
it's one of the biggest projects

564
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:25,520
we or richard of course has done in

565
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:27,600
quite a long time actually and i think

566
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:29,120
it's one that we think will be closely

567
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:30,640
referenced by a lot of people in fact

568
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:31,840
i've already been approached by

569
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:34,080
americans for information about it so

570
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:36,080
that i know

571
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:37,760
what more do you need what

572
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:40,000
more do you need approach to actually

573
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:41,760
cover the details so the grand

574
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:43,919
australian psychic prediction project uh

575
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:46,960
the results are all in uh and in this

576
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:48,559
article that's in the magazine it's got

577
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,000
lists all the psychics and how

578
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,400
successful or unsuccessful they've been

579
00:20:58,149 --> 00:20:54,480
it gives all the background on how it

580
00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:58,159
was done it gives the results it also uh

581
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:00,840
preempts any um

582
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,240
predicted complaints yes that there

583
00:21:08,710 --> 00:21:06,159
might be about uh the process and the

584
00:21:12,549 --> 00:21:08,720
final results and and richard in his in

585
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,559
his clever way has written a a series of

586
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:14,159
responses to questions that haven't been

587
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:16,240
asked yet yes obviously psychic just

588
00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:18,320
look just like our friend maynardo would

589
00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:20,960
do now the thing is i did that because

590
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:23,200
as i was writing the report or richard i

591
00:21:27,029 --> 00:21:25,200
should say that strange character

592
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:27,039
writing the report i thought

593
00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:28,720
what are they going to say when this is

594
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,320
all finished and i could see where it

595
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,559
was heading so i tried to preempt i

596
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:34,320
tried to predict what the complaints

597
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:36,240
would be and you did very well i think

598
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:37,520
actually because i think we've covered

599
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:39,280
or you've covered very much

600
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,880
everything that i could think of with

601
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:42,960
all the usual culprits you know skeptics

602
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:45,760
are biased you know that uh what's the

603
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,600
point you know we're just here for

604
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:49,679
entertainment and blah blah blah all

605
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:50,960
those sort of things and they have all

606
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:53,600
been responded to in this article

607
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:55,039
along with everything else so it's a

608
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:57,679
detailed report and because it is so

609
00:22:00,789 --> 00:21:59,440
important and we think it is important

610
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,799
and we've had those comments from other

611
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:02,000
people as well

612
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:06,320
on a global scale even for a flat earth

613
00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:08,799
across the whole flat earth that

614
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:10,840
we have made this report

615
00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:13,600
public and people can go onto our

616
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,520
website

617
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:16,640
skeptics.com.iu and click on the

618
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:18,080
magazine link and you can actually

619
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:20,000
download this entire article

620
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,440
which is unusual for us because we don't

621
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:23,280
normally put such a long article as our

622
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:25,200
sample every whenever an issue comes out

623
00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:26,960
a magazine comes out we put a sample

624
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:29,919
yeah almost like a teaser right article

625
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:32,480
um to show along with the contents page

626
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,559
to show the sort of stuff that we have

627
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:36,559
and this is a pretty major piece so

628
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:38,960
we've made that the the sample article

629
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:41,919
um and so that everyone can get to look

630
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,840
at it it can be a reference people can

631
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:45,760
link to it and you know re-link to it

632
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:46,960
etc

633
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:49,039
because it is huge it is it is a really

634
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,799
important thing but of course that's not

635
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,240
the only thing in the magazine i should

636
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:54,000
add oh really you mean there's other

637
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:55,760
things in their magazines there are

638
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:58,159
other things even better oh

639
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:59,280
heavens

640
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:01,039
we have a look at a number of things but

641
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:02,320
there's a couple of myths that keep

642
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:05,440
cropping up about um vaccination um and

643
00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:07,840
supposedly referring to historical

644
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:09,360
issues one is the vaccination

645
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:11,120
compensation

646
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,720
scheme that you know all these people

647
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:14,880
are being compensated for vaccination

648
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:16,480
damage yes i've heard about that yeah

649
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,840
billions of dollars or something

650
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:19,120
billions of dollars so we've actually

651
00:23:22,149 --> 00:23:20,799
looking at one of those the american

652
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:22,159
scheme of course which is probably the

653
00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:24,799
most widely quoted we look at that and

654
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:26,720
look behind the actual sort of claims

655
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:29,360
etc about what's being done there and

656
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:31,679
the reality of the uh compensation

657
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:34,320
scheme now people are compensated right

658
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:36,400
do bad things do happen after

659
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:38,720
vaccinations for some people yeah and

660
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:40,400
they looked after but this actually it's

661
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:41,919
yeah the issue is sort of somewhat

662
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:43,679
exaggerated the other one that's

663
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:46,000
exaggerated and raised is the nuremberg

664
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:46,960
code

665
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:48,799
oh yes i've heard that one yeah yeah the

666
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:50,960
nuremberg code is sort of uh states that

667
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:53,120
um after after the second world war

668
00:23:57,990 --> 00:23:55,919
during all the nuremberg trials a whole

669
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:58,000
bunch of uh 20 i think doctors were put

670
00:24:01,909 --> 00:24:00,159
on trial for the crimes that they

671
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:01,919
committed that rather horrible no rather

672
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:03,840
the the horrific crimes they committed

673
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:06,320
in experimentation on people so this

674
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:08,240
nuremberg code was written shortly after

675
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:09,360
that

676
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,799
and lays out rules for how

677
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,000
you can

678
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:16,720
do or should you even do experiments on

679
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:17,840
people

680
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:18,640
now

681
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:20,320
a lot of the people i regard and that

682
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:22,480
nuremberg code has been adapted and

683
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:24,320
changed at least five times and there's

684
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:26,000
been other variations put forward as

685
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:27,840
well and basically saying you can't

686
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:29,520
experiment on people you know unless

687
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,480
they agree to it for a start so the

688
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:34,799
anti-vaxxers are saying that vaccination

689
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:37,200
is an experiment and that therefore it

690
00:24:41,909 --> 00:24:39,840
um goes against the nuremberg code well

691
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:41,919
it doesn't right the nuremberg code does

692
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:43,840
not cover vaccination vaccination is not

693
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:46,320
an experiment uh and certainly when it's

694
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:48,159
being uh put out against you know in the

695
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:49,279
mass public

696
00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:51,039
so yeah there's these two myths

697
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,600
vaccination compensation and vaccination

698
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:55,039
i'm pleased to hear that because that's

699
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,600
one thing that that has been put to me

700
00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:00,000
more than once and i and i haven't had a

701
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:01,760
quick reading answer so i will look

702
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:03,679
forward to reading that in the magazine

703
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:05,360
and this actually lists the other codes

704
00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:06,880
themselves and that's right because

705
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:08,960
because this article by richard on the

706
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:11,520
project there's like is a reference work

707
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:13,039
i wanted these two to be in there as

708
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:14,720
well and they are reference works so

709
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:16,240
when these topics crop up you can look

710
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:17,679
at the article and say here whack it

711
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:18,640
down

712
00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:21,440
you know copy your eyes on that one

713
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,880
and we get a few other articles of

714
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,799
course it's also the 10th anniversary of

715
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:26,880
the friends of science in medicine which

716
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:27,679
is

717
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:32,720
been campaigning for 10 years um against

718
00:25:37,269 --> 00:25:34,640
sort of pseudoscience in in medi in

719
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:37,279
universities and largely in universities

720
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:40,400
etc so they've been active

721
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:42,000
for 10 years now and uh we have

722
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:43,440
supported them sorry the australian

723
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:45,840
skeptics have supported them in the past

724
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:48,080
so um we're very happy to see their

725
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:50,240
growth and their continued existence and

726
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:51,760
apart from that all the usual stories

727
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:53,919
the usual sort of candidates and things

728
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:56,080
like the interesting story of arthur

729
00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:59,200
cannon doyle harry houdini and dinosaurs

730
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:00,080
oh

731
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:03,440
it's amazing you know and all the

732
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,480
research i've been doing for the

733
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:06,480
skeptics zone reading trove and the

734
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:09,600
historical archives how often

735
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:12,400
sir arthur conan doyle pops up he was a

736
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:14,720
busy guy he really was

737
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:18,480
very busy guy he he wrote books you know

738
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,480
i don't know how he had the time between

739
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:22,720
looking for monsters and ghosts and and

740
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:28,470
i don't know how what a nice sort of

741
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:29,919
person he obviously had a few tricks up

742
00:26:33,269 --> 00:26:31,520
his sleeve so that's what this little

743
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,279
article which is in that what goes

744
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:35,840
around section yeah that i often cover

745
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:37,760
in the book of tim yes yes yes one of

746
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:39,200
those and it's a it's a weird little

747
00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:40,960
story excellent i look forward to

748
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,400
reading that too and i'm sure our

749
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:44,240
listeners will look forward to reading

750
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:47,360
everything in the magazine how can they

751
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,440
um take advantage of reading the

752
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:51,760
magazine what must they do

753
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:52,960
well of course with this particular

754
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:55,200
magazine being one of the four most

755
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:56,400
recent issues they will have to

756
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:57,679
subscribe

757
00:27:01,830 --> 00:26:59,440
right issues older than that we put up

758
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:01,840
on our website for free right but any of

759
00:27:05,909 --> 00:27:03,760
the most recent four issues we keep for

760
00:27:06,909 --> 00:27:05,919
our subscribers that they can subscribe

761
00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:06,919
by going to

762
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:09,200
skeptics.com.au and then going to our

763
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,159
shop

764
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:12,000
and there you'll find a little thing

765
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:13,120
called a link

766
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:15,200
right and it's a little little picture i

767
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:17,360
think that's an icon they call it right

768
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:18,880
and then you can click on that and

769
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:20,720
subscribe to the magazine keeping up

770
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:22,720
with the times tim and i know of course

771
00:27:26,149 --> 00:27:24,480
if people subscribe

772
00:27:27,669 --> 00:27:26,159
uh they will get the magazine almost

773
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:27,679
straight away because they can opt to

774
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:30,080
have it digitally then it's emailed to

775
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,240
them and they can enjoy it on their

776
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:34,640
computer or their what i do is i enjoy

777
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:37,279
it on my ipad i i just read it straight

778
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:40,080
off the ipad it makes a great ebook or

779
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:41,840
they can get the physical copy sent to

780
00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:44,320
them so they can read it um where maybe

781
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:46,240
they don't have access to a computer or

782
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:47,279
whatever

783
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:49,279
yeah absolutely i mean you could stand

784
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:51,200
on it and change light bulbs you can

785
00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:53,600
it's obvious folks the skeptic magazine

786
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:55,600
is obvious tim thank you very much for

787
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:58,240
that update uh there you are folks run

788
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:00,960
to skeptics.com.edu subscribe to the

789
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,640
magazine and join the thousands of

790
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:04,159
others who enjoy

791
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:06,399
every quarter their dose of skepticism

792
00:28:09,909 --> 00:28:08,480
from australian skeptics tim i look

793
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:09,919
forward to catching up with you soon in

794
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:12,240
person to record more of the real book

795
00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:15,120
of tim but for now thank you very much

796
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:15,840
my pleasure

797
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:31,510
hey adrian

798
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:33,919
hi susan out for some shopping eh yep

799
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,080
i'm stocking up on this imitation maple

800
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:38,880
syrup from australia imitation

801
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:40,480
imitation

802
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:43,120
no no no no you need to buy the real

803
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:45,200
thing from canada

804
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:47,200
but i saw the tv commercial and it said

805
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:49,440
that noted pancake eating expert richard

806
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:51,120
saunders says it's the best maple syrup

807
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:52,960
money can buy and sixty percent of

808
00:28:58,070 --> 00:28:55,200
people preferred in a blind taste test

809
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:58,080
everyone knows it's the best oh come on

810
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:00,799
susan you know better than that

811
00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:04,080
that's the argument from authority it is

812
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:07,279
or is it the argument from popularity

813
00:29:10,789 --> 00:29:08,880
hmm

814
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,799
it might be another logical fallacy i'm

815
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:13,120
not sure really if only we had a way of

816
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:20,470
[Music]

817
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,000
hello everyone oh my it's the skeptical

818
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:26,240
fairy godmother angel from the internet

819
00:29:31,909 --> 00:29:28,720
yes that's right but how did you know

820
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:31,919
who i am i listened to the skeptic zone

821
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,120
podcast

822
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,520
also didn't you used to be the tooth

823
00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:37,200
fairy oh

824
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:38,559
yes

825
00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:41,039
i remember you

826
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:44,080
i'll never forget your left upper

827
00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:47,440
lateral incisor would you like it back

828
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:48,640
no

829
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:50,080
it's okay

830
00:29:53,669 --> 00:29:52,159
you keep it hey skeptical fairy

831
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:53,679
godmother angel what are you doing here

832
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:56,240
in the supermarket i've come to tell you

833
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:58,960
that you can find out about 40 different

834
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,760
logical fallacies on youtube in one

835
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:03,840
handy location

836
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:05,919
listen to each one to hear an

837
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:08,480
explanation and examples of how they

838
00:30:18,710 --> 00:30:15,710
just go to tinyurl.com

839
00:30:21,269 --> 00:30:18,720
logicalzone and you'll find all the

840
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:21,279
logical fallacies with michelle

841
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,320
mark with handy time codes to get to the

842
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:26,640
exact one you want who is michelle

843
00:30:31,310 --> 00:30:27,760
bigesma

844
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:31,320
um just a friend of mine

845
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:33,200
tinyurl.com

846
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,720
logicalzone

847
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:36,640
thank you skeptical fairy godmother

848
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,520
angel

849
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:39,520
i guess you'll disappear in a puff of

850
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:41,679
smoke and thunder now eh

851
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:42,799
um

852
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:45,600
not quite yet i have a bit of shopping

853
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:46,640
to do

854
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:47,760
susan

855
00:30:51,909 --> 00:30:49,120
yes

856
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,919
where do i find the australian maple

857
00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:53,679
syrup hmm

858
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:56,399
what no no no come with me so called

859
00:31:09,530 --> 00:31:00,000
skeptical fairy this is real maple syrup

860
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:18,870
[Music]

861
00:31:22,590 --> 00:31:20,480
now it's time once again to look into

862
00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:22,600
the trove archives at

863
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:25,039
trove.nla.gov dot a u the online

864
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:26,480
resource

865
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:29,360
used around the world four digitized

866
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:31,360
australian newspapers gazettes magazines

867
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:32,880
periodicals

868
00:31:39,710 --> 00:31:36,240
journals diaries menus

869
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:39,720
all sorts of things at your disposal at

870
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:41,760
trove.nla.gov.a you put in your search

871
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:43,120
criteria

872
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:45,360
and you never know what you'll find

873
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:47,600
now lately we've been looking at uh

874
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,600
quackery alternative medicine that sort

875
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:51,440
of thing today we're going to go back to

876
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:53,440
a classic of skepticism

877
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,080
that is uh looking at things like

878
00:32:05,710 --> 00:31:59,360
mediums and seances and contacting the

879
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:11,269
[Music]

880
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:14,399
and our first entry comes from the sun

881
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:16,000
which was published here in sydney

882
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:17,840
australia

883
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:19,919
and this is from wednesday the 30th

884
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:22,799
april 1952

885
00:32:29,830 --> 00:32:26,960
devices produce fake ghosts

886
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:29,840
amazing devices to produce fake ghosts

887
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:34,080
spirit world messages voices and sounds

888
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:36,240
have been uncovered by the universal

889
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:39,840
council of psychic research

890
00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:40,880
with

891
00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:43,600
this visual evidence the council has

892
00:32:48,149 --> 00:32:45,760
launched an all-out war

893
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,159
on fake mediums who have been taking

894
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:50,399
millions of pounds from the public

895
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:53,519
how these dishonest mediums

896
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,720
work is pictorially represented in the

897
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:58,799
new issue of pics

898
00:33:01,669 --> 00:33:00,159
pix

899
00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:01,679
out today

900
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:04,480
other vivid stories and pictures are new

901
00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:07,120
electric treatment for disease

902
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:09,760
college girl bull fighter

903
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:12,960
more usa air bases around russia

904
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:15,679
life of a sparring partner

905
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:18,880
search for 10 000 pound stamp in

906
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,640
australia rotary mast in new york design

907
00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:25,200
zanzibar travelogue

908
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:28,399
the honey bear nature story also film

909
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:31,039
stars at home worlds news and pictures

910
00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:33,840
pictorial film reviews joffrey's

911
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:35,519
cartoons

912
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:37,600
to avoid disappointment order your picks

913
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:39,840
early this week price

914
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:43,440
one shilling everywhere

915
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:46,159
it might be worth having a look for this

916
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:47,600
issue of

917
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:50,080
picks then

918
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:51,679
but uh

919
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:54,000
looking through the archive sadly that

920
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,880
particular issue is not available

921
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:58,559
what a pity

922
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:00,399
so the next item we have comes from the

923
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:03,120
grenfell record and lachlan district

924
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:04,640
advertiser

925
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:07,039
just rolls off the tongue

926
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,520
dated thursday the 24th of september

927
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:11,760
1931

928
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:13,919
people want to be fooled

929
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,440
fleshy ghosts all are fake

930
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:20,159
when ghosts appear at my seances they

931
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:23,200
are nino picararo in the flesh

932
00:34:27,109 --> 00:34:26,240
thus spiritualism received a telling

933
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:27,119
blow

934
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:28,960
when the medium who is said to have

935
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,919
deceived sir arthur conan doyle

936
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:34,480
confesses that all his seeming

937
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:37,200
supernatural accomplishments were pure

938
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,399
deception

939
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,079
sleight of hand tricks

940
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:42,399
i've never seen a ghost and i don't

941
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:45,200
believe anyone else has ever seen one he

942
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:48,639
told reporters of the new york times i'm

943
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:51,200
sick and tired of giving seances and

944
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:54,000
having others reap the profits saying

945
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:54,879
that

946
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:57,119
people want to be fooled

947
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:00,240
piccaro admitted that he had made his

948
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:04,560
living by fake seances for 11 years

949
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:07,920
but from now on he would confine himself

950
00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:10,720
to painting acting and writing for a

951
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:14,079
livelihood now i might just break off

952
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:17,920
here for a moment and look

953
00:35:25,829 --> 00:35:22,640
into who this nino picarado was exactly

954
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:25,839
and a quick look at wikipedia let's see

955
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:30,320
nino picararo 1899-1917

956
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:31,760
was an italian

957
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:33,920
spiritualist medium

958
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:36,800
who was exposed as a fraud

959
00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:40,960
and the accompanying image here has him

960
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:43,359
sitting in a chair

961
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:45,440
bound up by lots of ropes

962
00:35:48,790 --> 00:35:47,119
which is

963
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:48,800
uh reminiscent of some of the

964
00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:51,440
spiritualist acts at seances where they

965
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:52,720
say that their

966
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:54,480
hands are tied to the table or the chair

967
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,160
so they can't possibly be doing any

968
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:58,400
shenanigans in the dark

969
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:01,280
picarado from naples it says worked as a

970
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:03,760
spiritualist medium

971
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:06,240
and he impressed people like sir arthur

972
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:08,000
conan doyle by making musical

973
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:10,560
instruments played during seances

974
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:13,119
typical trick i think

975
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:14,960
he was tested by members of the

976
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:18,400
scientific american in 1923

977
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:20,000
and it says he impressed some of the

978
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:21,440
committee members who consider the

979
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:25,040
phenomena genuine however od munn the

980
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:26,640
publisher of scientific americans

981
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,320
suspected that he had freed his hand

982
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:32,400
to play the instruments the magician

983
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:34,960
harry houdini had not been informed of

984
00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:37,920
the test sessions but managed to get

985
00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:39,280
to the

986
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:40,960
fourth seance

987
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:44,720
houdini suggested that picararo was an

988
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:47,119
escape artist who freed himself from the

989
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:50,000
rope that bound him to the chair

990
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,079
before the seance houdini had cut the

991
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:54,720
rope into shorter pieces and tied

992
00:36:59,750 --> 00:36:57,200
picarado to the chair because of the

993
00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,760
tight control no phenomena occurred

994
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,640
well there you go in 1931 picarado

995
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:04,480
confessed his fraud in a newspaper

996
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:05,839
interview

997
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:08,960
later in life he became an artist

998
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:13,200
how about that i did not know about

999
00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:16,320
this guy his story hmm well let's go

1000
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:18,800
back to our trove article

1001
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:22,240
and pick that up where we left off and

1002
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,240
indeed of course this article is from

1003
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,240
1931.

1004
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:28,560
eight years ago it is recalled when the

1005
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,520
rage for spiritualism was at its height

1006
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:33,359
and sorrowing people were seeking

1007
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:36,720
consolation by thinking to communicate

1008
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:37,839
with the dead

1009
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:40,400
piccado attracted wide attention for

1010
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:43,280
appearing as a claimant for the prize of

1011
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:45,920
two thousand five hundred dollars

1012
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:48,480
offered by a scientific magazine to any

1013
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:50,800
medium who could produce authentic

1014
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:53,200
phenomena well that's interesting that's

1015
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:54,400
like the

1016
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,040
brandy one million dollar prize or the

1017
00:38:00,870 --> 00:37:59,200
one hundred thousand dollar prize here

1018
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:00,880
in australia

1019
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:03,520
for a time a committee of distinguished

1020
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:06,480
scientists named by the magazine seemed

1021
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:08,560
much impressed by his

1022
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:12,400
demonstrations recently however he was

1023
00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:15,839
reported less successful and three years

1024
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:17,920
ago his attempt to materialize the

1025
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:19,680
spirit of houdini

1026
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:23,280
master of all magicians and implacable

1027
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:25,359
foe of the spiritualists

1028
00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:26,400
failed

1029
00:38:33,589 --> 00:38:28,960
so significantly that his own manager

1030
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:33,599
pronounced the seance a terrible frost

1031
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:36,079
deceived conan doyle

1032
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:38,640
yet piccarado is reputed to have

1033
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:41,599
deceived the creator of sherlock holmes

1034
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:44,000
greatest of all fictional detectives

1035
00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:46,000
conan doyle was a firm believer in

1036
00:38:51,990 --> 00:38:49,760
spiritualism and its converts today

1037
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,000
include the famous scientist sir oliver

1038
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,480
lodge who is reported to have held

1039
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:56,640
communications with his son killed in

1040
00:39:01,910 --> 00:38:59,280
action in the world war

1041
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:01,920
whether piccardo's confession will halt

1042
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:05,920
the sorrowful march to the darkened dens

1043
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:07,440
of the mediums

1044
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:09,760
is purely a matter of conjecture but

1045
00:39:15,750 --> 00:39:12,720
many agree that it is a staggering blow

1046
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:15,760
to the cult piccado repeated an old

1047
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:19,040
opinion the philadelphia evening public

1048
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:21,680
ledger reminds us when he said that

1049
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:24,400
people want to be fooled and to this

1050
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:26,880
philadelphia observes

1051
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:29,920
if it is more serious and a little sad

1052
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:33,200
that such credulity is so often inspired

1053
00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:36,160
by uncertainty unhappiness and a

1054
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:38,640
profound need for some assurance in

1055
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:41,760
facing the trials and problems of life

1056
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:44,480
the same sense of need leads many just

1057
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:47,040
now to consult with the cheapest sort of

1058
00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:49,359
tricksters professed readers of the

1059
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:50,480
stars

1060
00:39:55,990 --> 00:39:53,040
palms and crystals and others who claim

1061
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:56,000
to know by mystic means the incalculable

1062
00:40:00,390 --> 00:39:58,160
events that are yet to come

1063
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:00,400
if anyone were granted spiritual vision

1064
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:03,040
or second sight it would be nearly

1065
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:05,440
incredible that he should choose to make

1066
00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:07,920
profit by such an endowment

1067
00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:10,640
either on the grand scale or in the

1068
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:13,200
cheaper fashion of the back street

1069
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,560
fortune teller or avoidable performer

1070
00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:18,240
and the public might be fortified

1071
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:20,319
against such exploitation by remembering

1072
00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:22,079
the sound advice

1073
00:40:26,150 --> 00:40:22,839
of

1074
00:40:28,470 --> 00:40:26,160
horus quote cease to inquire what the

1075
00:40:31,109 --> 00:40:28,480
future has in store

1076
00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:31,119
and take as a gift whatever the day

1077
00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:34,480
brings forth then quote it is axiomatic

1078
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:36,319
points out another writer that

1079
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,960
supernatural causes must not be sought

1080
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:40,960
over what can be produced by natural

1081
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,000
means

1082
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:44,319
only when science and reason fail may

1083
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:47,040
spirit causes properly be assumed or

1084
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:48,400
even looked at

1085
00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:49,680
yet

1086
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:52,240
granted a reasonably clever man has no

1087
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:55,040
scruples about playing such tricks

1088
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:57,839
observes the baltimore sun

1089
00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:01,040
it will not be very hard for him to take

1090
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:02,640
in completely

1091
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:05,440
a much more intelligent man

1092
00:41:10,870 --> 00:41:08,640
who for some deep personal reasons wants

1093
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:10,880
terribly to believe

1094
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:11,920
but

1095
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:14,800
belief is a very risky dangerous thing

1096
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,400
to play around with

1097
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:18,960
even the deliberate charlatan never

1098
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:20,480
knows just how far

1099
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:21,920
it can go

1100
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:24,560
and what it can do

1101
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:27,599
where it begins and ends what it will

1102
00:41:33,910 --> 00:41:30,079
produce and fail to produce

1103
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:33,920
even the magician himself nino piccardo

1104
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:37,280
wants credit for his own show

1105
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:40,079
it is a question whether he will ever be

1106
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:41,680
without ghosts

1107
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:44,800
whether he will be able to be without

1108
00:41:48,309 --> 00:41:45,520
them

1109
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:48,319
at the same time observes the brooklyn

1110
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:51,440
eagle not all sane men and women are

1111
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:53,839
absolute believers nearly all are

1112
00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:55,040
skeptics

1113
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:55,839
and

1114
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:56,640
they

1115
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:58,880
need not regard the confession of

1116
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:02,000
piccardo as anything conclusive against

1117
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:04,560
the doctrine of spiritualism

1118
00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:07,040
now the next entry we have comes a year

1119
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:08,400
later

1120
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:11,040
from the freeman's journal in sydney

1121
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:17,030
exposes

1122
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:19,839
fake mediums

1123
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:22,240
to support his contention that

1124
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:24,400
spiritualistic mediums resort to

1125
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:26,240
conjuring and trickery to obtain

1126
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:29,520
mystifying or weird effects

1127
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:32,560
the reverend albert knapp op a skillful

1128
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:33,760
conjurer

1129
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:36,400
and a member of the magic circle

1130
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:39,359
recently gave a demonstration in saint

1131
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:42,880
salvador's hall lewisham england which

1132
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:45,520
completely baffled a large audience

1133
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,480
he then explained how the tricks were

1134
00:42:51,910 --> 00:42:49,839
done

1135
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:51,920
oh as an aside

1136
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:55,040
and i've said this before uh wow i would

1137
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:57,520
have loved to have been there on that

1138
00:43:02,950 --> 00:42:59,119
occasion

1139
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:02,960
father knapp the london universe states

1140
00:43:08,069 --> 00:43:06,240
made spooks flit about the stage in a

1141
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:08,079
stitching darkness

1142
00:43:13,670 --> 00:43:10,640
and just incidentally stitching refers

1143
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:13,680
to the river styx of mythology

1144
00:43:19,349 --> 00:43:17,920
and conjured up eerie white and nebulous

1145
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:19,359
forms

1146
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:22,880
some crooning others wailing

1147
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:25,440
they were all the world like the

1148
00:43:30,790 --> 00:43:28,400
traditional phantoms of fiction and one

1149
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:30,800
would not have been surprised to see a

1150
00:43:37,349 --> 00:43:34,000
ghost in clanking chains or sir walter

1151
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:37,359
rally walking about with his head under

1152
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:40,240
his arm father knapp started the

1153
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:43,280
performance by asking his medium a tall

1154
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:46,560
young lady in the guise of a japanese

1155
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:49,280
to hold to her brow envelopes containing

1156
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:52,000
slips of paper on which were questions

1157
00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:54,560
written by members of the audience this

1158
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:56,400
she did standing in the center of the

1159
00:44:00,309 --> 00:43:59,359
aisle of the hall while father knapp sat

1160
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,319
at

1161
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:02,640
a table in the center of the stage

1162
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:05,280
father knapp then read aloud appropriate

1163
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:08,319
answers to all the questions selected at

1164
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:11,680
random from a basket

1165
00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:13,520
spirit hand

1166
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:16,000
in the next trick a cardboard

1167
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:18,960
spirit hand moved about a blackboard on

1168
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:21,440
which was written the alphabet and spelt

1169
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:23,200
out names given by members of the

1170
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:26,800
audience the spirits then wrote on paper

1171
00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:29,839
and the medium blindfolded told the

1172
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:32,720
number of pips on a number of cards

1173
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:34,960
selected by one of the crowd

1174
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:37,200
returning from an outside passage in

1175
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:39,920
which she stood under the guard of two

1176
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:42,800
volunteer witnesses the young japanese

1177
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:45,040
lady stated correctly the number of

1178
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:47,920
coins in a purse not a sound was made by

1179
00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:50,480
the kundra or audience when she

1180
00:44:54,550 --> 00:44:52,319
re-entered the room

1181
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:54,560
then came the most baffling trick of the

1182
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:56,319
evening four volunteers from the

1183
00:45:02,470 --> 00:44:59,920
audience tied the medium's hands behind

1184
00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:02,480
her back to a chair with strips of

1185
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:05,520
calico and sealed the knots

1186
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,400
and placed a ring between her teeth

1187
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:10,640
screens were placed about her so it was

1188
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:13,680
obvious she could have no help from any

1189
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:16,560
other person and then the screens were

1190
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:20,000
whisked away and the medium

1191
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:23,040
was seen sitting bound with the knots

1192
00:45:27,829 --> 00:45:26,640
still sealed and the ring on one of her

1193
00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:27,839
fingers

1194
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:30,400
through the medium the spirits worked

1195
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:33,599
feverishly behind the screens

1196
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:36,000
feverishly for each trick took less than

1197
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:37,200
a minute

1198
00:45:40,870 --> 00:45:39,680
poured milk from a jug into a glass lit

1199
00:45:43,829 --> 00:45:40,880
a candle

1200
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:43,839
struck knives into a numbered board on

1201
00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:46,720
numbers called by the audience played a

1202
00:45:53,109 --> 00:45:50,800
tin whistle and banged a symbol

1203
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:53,119
in his address before the performance

1204
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,240
father knapp said spiritualism is one of

1205
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:58,319
the most important questions of modern

1206
00:46:02,790 --> 00:45:59,440
times

1207
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:02,800
and sets before souls painful problems

1208
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:06,480
its adepts are counted in thousands

1209
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:09,040
i might almost say millions in every

1210
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:11,839
country of the world its successors

1211
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:14,319
proves at least one thing the need for

1212
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:17,760
the soul of belief in the beyond

1213
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:20,640
in another world in survivorship or

1214
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:23,040
to use the real world

1215
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:25,200
in immortality

1216
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:28,960
used as means to deceive unhappily men

1217
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:31,680
and women without conscience make use of

1218
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,000
this need to deceive

1219
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:37,200
and seduce souls and to make money

1220
00:46:42,309 --> 00:46:39,760
sorrowful relations sees

1221
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:42,319
with avidity the slightest word which

1222
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:44,160
may indicate

1223
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:46,960
even from afar that the spirit or rather

1224
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,040
the soul they seek is in communication

1225
00:46:54,309 --> 00:46:51,520
with them the phenomena which take place

1226
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,319
at sciences are simply conjuring tricks

1227
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:56,800
some of these tricks are very crude

1228
00:47:01,109 --> 00:46:59,359
some are very clever but i repeat it

1229
00:47:04,069 --> 00:47:01,119
they are tricks

1230
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,079
we conjurers know them and can reproduce

1231
00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:06,720
them today all seances are more or less

1232
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:09,839
alike and many of them alas they try to

1233
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:12,480
make of spiritualism a religion hymns

1234
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:15,040
are sung and prayers are said that is

1235
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,319
sacrilege

1236
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:18,400
all great kandras will tell you with

1237
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:21,760
houdini that they have never seen any

1238
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:25,520
supernatural in the spirit seances nor

1239
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:27,359
anything that could convince them that

1240
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:29,359
it is possible to communicate with the

1241
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:31,440
dead the meeting was held under the

1242
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:34,400
auspices of the southwark branch of the

1243
00:47:36,829 --> 00:47:35,520
catholic

1244
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:36,839
evidence

1245
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:40,160
guild wow there's a lot to think about

1246
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:41,119
there

1247
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,040
i still would have loved to have been in

1248
00:47:48,390 --> 00:47:45,440
the audience to see that performance it

1249
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:48,400
just sounds like a ripping night of

1250
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:50,960
of magic and conjuring

1251
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:53,680
now here's a particularly unusual one

1252
00:47:57,710 --> 00:47:56,000
from the courier male brisbane dated the

1253
00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:57,720
18th of october

1254
00:48:03,349 --> 00:47:59,440
1945.

1255
00:48:05,190 --> 00:48:03,359
women prisoners run fake seyons london

1256
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:05,200
october 17.

1257
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:06,960
special

1258
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:09,680
women prisoners posing as mediums have

1259
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:12,960
been holding seances in holloway jail

1260
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:15,119
says the daily mail

1261
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,319
they have been collecting one and one

1262
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:20,720
which i assume stands for

1263
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:23,040
one shilling and one penny weekly

1264
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:25,440
comfort money from other prisoners on

1265
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:27,680
the pretext of being able to receive

1266
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:29,920
messages from the dead

1267
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:32,319
one bereaved prisoner was mentally

1268
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:35,440
deranged by the messages the authorities

1269
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:37,440
have now broken up the seances in the

1270
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,920
jail where conditions last week were

1271
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:42,079
described as bedlam

1272
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:45,359
by mr w j brown mp

1273
00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:48,640
who is pressing the home secretary mr

1274
00:48:54,230 --> 00:48:52,160
chuta eid to appoint a committee of

1275
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:54,240
inquiry

1276
00:49:00,230 --> 00:48:58,000
seances in jail

1277
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:00,240
and finally we do have something from

1278
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:03,839
the picks magazine dated the 29th of

1279
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:06,000
july 1950

1280
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:07,760
and it's quite something i will link to

1281
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:10,240
this specific article in this week's

1282
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,000
show notes because the accompanying

1283
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:14,720
photographs are just

1284
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:17,520
just amazing i'll try to explain them in

1285
00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:18,800
a moment

1286
00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:22,400
spiritualism is levitation a fake

1287
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:25,119
danish medium takes unique pictures to

1288
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:27,359
show spirits at play

1289
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:30,319
in darkened room for many years

1290
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,440
scientists spiritualists churchmen and

1291
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:35,760
laymen have been arguing the pros and

1292
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:37,920
cons of spiritualism

1293
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:39,760
but the big question still remains

1294
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:42,079
unanswered are spiritualism and

1295
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:45,119
levitation faked or are they genuine

1296
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:47,839
supernormal phenomena

1297
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:49,839
and just stopping quickly i've never

1298
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:53,040
seen that word before super normal

1299
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:54,960
that's a new one on me

1300
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:03,270
most skeptics refuse to acknowledge

1301
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:06,240
existence of supernatural forces

1302
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:08,800
they back their argument with the claim

1303
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:11,119
that sufficient material evidence has

1304
00:50:16,870 --> 00:50:14,000
never been produced they ridicule the

1305
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:16,880
idea that spirits of the dead can speak

1306
00:50:22,549 --> 00:50:20,160
that supernormal forces can lift tables

1307
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:22,559
or slap faces of human such

1308
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:25,599
demonstrations are faked they say

1309
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:29,040
but danish photographer and medium sven

1310
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:32,240
turek claims to have pictorial evidence

1311
00:50:35,829 --> 00:50:34,319
published on these pages

1312
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:35,839
of levitation

1313
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:39,200
the mystic rising of objects in the air

1314
00:50:44,790 --> 00:50:41,760
the pictures look convincing tarik

1315
00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:44,800
explains that he is not a spiritualist

1316
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:46,880
that the forces he employs are not

1317
00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:49,280
connected with the spirits of dead

1318
00:50:52,150 --> 00:50:50,480
people

1319
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:52,160
he says

1320
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:54,800
i am skeptical when mediums introduce

1321
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,720
the forces and give their names

1322
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:00,800
my mind won't be changed until one of

1323
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:04,160
these so-called spirits changes it for

1324
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:07,599
me in my opinion the forces are powers

1325
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:10,240
in the subconscious minds of people

1326
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:13,200
powers which are released under certain

1327
00:51:17,829 --> 00:51:15,680
circumstances we see and hear what

1328
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:17,839
happens but as far as the background of

1329
00:51:22,950 --> 00:51:20,800
these mystic forces is concerned

1330
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,960
we know practically nothing

1331
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:24,319
and voice

1332
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:27,119
with a specially selected team of 12

1333
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:29,920
mediums turek has been conducting

1334
00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:32,720
seances for 14 years

1335
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:34,000
strange

1336
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:36,480
things happen

1337
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:38,480
in the darkened room

1338
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:42,000
heavy tables suddenly leap into the air

1339
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:44,640
furniture is thrown about clothing is

1340
00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:46,240
ripped off people

1341
00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:49,040
guests are mysteriously hurled on top of

1342
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:51,920
tables i'll pause here briefly and try

1343
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:55,119
to describe the first photograph on the

1344
00:51:58,710 --> 00:51:57,040
page which is a huge photograph taking

1345
00:52:00,790 --> 00:51:58,720
up most of the page

1346
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:00,800
we have a

1347
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:03,119
lady and a man next to each other

1348
00:52:06,870 --> 00:52:05,359
dressed appropriately in 1950 style

1349
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:06,880
clothing

1350
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:07,760
um

1351
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,400
and what appears to be a table or a

1352
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:13,119
chair it's hard to say

1353
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:14,319
mid

1354
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:15,440
flight

1355
00:52:19,030 --> 00:52:17,359
in front of them sort of zooming up

1356
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:19,040
towards the ceiling and their arms are

1357
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:20,880
extended as if they're trying to hold it

1358
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:22,880
or stop it or or touch it or something

1359
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:24,880
like that it's very strange

1360
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:27,920
and the accompanying

1361
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:31,040
caption reads danish mediums jump back

1362
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,520
as a table mysteriously rises in mid-air

1363
00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:37,119
and page after page are similar

1364
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,359
photographs of tables flying about the

1365
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:41,520
room with people trying to stop them or

1366
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:43,920
touch them or something like that and

1367
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:46,240
page after page of bizarre photographs

1368
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:48,640
of people appearing to leap through the

1369
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,960
air sort of taken mid

1370
00:52:53,589 --> 00:52:52,880
leap

1371
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:53,599
and

1372
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,160
it's just bizarre it's crazy it's

1373
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:58,559
to be frank it's quite comical

1374
00:53:01,829 --> 00:53:00,559
i think they had a very good time doing

1375
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:01,839
this story

1376
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:03,599
the story goes on

1377
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:06,640
infrared lamps noiseless cameras record

1378
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:09,040
strange manifestation

1379
00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:11,359
turek records the phenomena with a

1380
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:14,000
battery of cameras set up in a darkened

1381
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:18,160
room and working simultaneously infrared

1382
00:53:24,069 --> 00:53:21,200
ray lamps automatically light as soon as

1383
00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:24,079
something happens turek says his cameras

1384
00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:27,040
are fitted with silences to prevent

1385
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:28,800
their noises disturbing the

1386
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:30,480
manifestations

1387
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:33,359
turex mediums are sincere students of

1388
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:34,720
levitation

1389
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:37,520
they claim to be able to command the

1390
00:53:41,349 --> 00:53:40,400
mystic forces to appear every half

1391
00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:41,359
minute

1392
00:53:46,069 --> 00:53:43,440
phenomena they produce

1393
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:46,079
are the same as those claimed by

1394
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:49,280
spiritualists voices tapping sound of

1395
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:51,920
steps and moving furniture

1396
00:53:59,349 --> 00:53:55,359
turek says he has seen a medium lifted

1397
00:54:01,349 --> 00:53:59,359
up and undressed in less than a minute

1398
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:01,359
what sort of party is this

1399
00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:04,480
his clothes were swept up to the ceiling

1400
00:54:09,030 --> 00:54:07,359
and then slowly floated down i think

1401
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:09,040
maynard might have been at that party

1402
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,480
come to think of it

1403
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:13,200
one medium floated horizontally or in

1404
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:15,680
his chair near the ceiling for several

1405
00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:17,119
minutes

1406
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:18,720
turek adds

1407
00:54:23,349 --> 00:54:21,280
at one time the sciences became so rough

1408
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:23,359
that my copenhagen laboratory was

1409
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:24,880
completely wrecked

1410
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:26,960
neighbours became impatient when heavy

1411
00:54:31,030 --> 00:54:29,920
furniture consistently crashed across

1412
00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:31,040
the room

1413
00:54:35,829 --> 00:54:33,359
so we stopped the experiments even then

1414
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:35,839
the phenomena didn't stop i was thrown

1415
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:38,480
out of bed lights were suddenly switched

1416
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:42,319
on and strange shapeless hands touched

1417
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:43,599
me

1418
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:45,760
and another caption on one of the other

1419
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:48,720
photographs with people

1420
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,680
just

1421
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:52,400
in in strange positions around the table

1422
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:53,680
i think they're hamming it up for the

1423
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:55,599
camera quite frankly

1424
00:55:01,349 --> 00:54:59,119
mediums madly scramble out of the way as

1425
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:01,359
every movable piece of furniture in the

1426
00:55:05,829 --> 00:55:03,520
room starts sliding

1427
00:55:08,309 --> 00:55:05,839
man on the table was dumped there by

1428
00:55:10,470 --> 00:55:08,319
spirits tariq has written a book on the

1429
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:10,480
spiritualist world says there is

1430
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:12,160
connection between

1431
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:14,799
mentality of mediums and types of

1432
00:55:21,430 --> 00:55:19,990
[Music]

1433
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:21,440
and again that comes from the pics

1434
00:55:28,870 --> 00:55:26,319
magazine dated the 29th of july 1950.

1435
00:55:30,789 --> 00:55:28,880
and i think this caption really gives a

1436
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:30,799
true sense of what's going on

1437
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:33,680
striptease at a seance a medium's

1438
00:55:38,789 --> 00:55:35,920
trousers are torn from him

1439
00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:38,799
then rise and float near the ceiling

1440
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:40,880
they won't come back to him

1441
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:47,990
[Music]

1442
00:55:53,510 --> 00:55:49,680
well there you go what a wonderful way

1443
00:55:56,710 --> 00:55:53,520
to round off this segment on trove

1444
00:55:58,630 --> 00:55:56,720
mediums and seances and looking at those

1445
00:56:02,870 --> 00:55:58,640
photographs again and again those people

1446
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,270
what a bunch of danish hams they really

1447
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:07,280
are they're just hamming it up for the

1448
00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:08,880
uh

1449
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:15,030
[Music]

1450
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,960
you too can ham it up and have all sorts

1451
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:18,400
of fun by visiting trove at

1452
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:21,359
trove.nla.gov.eu

1453
00:56:26,789 --> 00:56:24,160
typing in your search having a look

1454
00:56:28,850 --> 00:56:26,799
and you'll never know you'll never know

1455
00:56:46,150 --> 00:56:28,860
what you'll find

1456
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:47,670
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1457
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:50,400
zone podcast and thank you to those

1458
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:52,240
people who uh

1459
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:53,599
really show their support for the

1460
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:55,599
skeptic zone by patreon or paypal at

1461
00:57:01,750 --> 00:56:59,829
and

1462
00:57:04,069 --> 00:57:01,760
in the last week we have some new

1463
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:04,079
patreon so thank you to those people

1464
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:06,000
very much i'll be in touch with you soon

1465
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,280
to thank you

1466
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:09,839
personally maybe moored the cat will too

1467
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:12,240
is she gone she's behind the curtains oh

1468
00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:13,440
there she is

1469
00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:16,000
she's settled down on the desk here

1470
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:18,480
she's looking at me hmm

1471
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:21,040
you want to edit the show next week

1472
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:22,880
let's see

1473
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:25,119
and speaking of next week

1474
00:57:29,589 --> 00:57:27,359
next week we're going to give you the

1475
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:29,599
full report about the australian uh the

1476
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:30,960
great australian psychic prediction

1477
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:34,480
project read by me and adrian hill and

1478
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,240
you can find out

1479
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:38,559
the methodology the history

1480
00:57:41,349 --> 00:57:40,400
all sorts of things about

1481
00:57:43,589 --> 00:57:41,359
this

1482
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:43,599
monumental undertaking

1483
00:57:48,710 --> 00:57:45,839
but for this week this is richard

1484
00:57:51,190 --> 00:57:48,720
saunders and maude the cat

1485
00:57:54,789 --> 00:57:51,200
oh i heard a little meow there

1486
00:57:57,270 --> 00:57:54,799
yes do you wanna say a quick meow

1487
00:58:03,750 --> 00:57:57,280
no nothing signing off

1488
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,510
you've been listening to the skeptic

1489
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,960
zone podcast

1490
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:08,400
please visit our website at

1491
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:14,630
for show notes contacts and to access

1492
00:58:19,349 --> 00:58:17,200
the back catalog of episodes going back

1493
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:19,359
to 2008.

1494
00:58:24,069 --> 00:58:21,359
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1495
00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:24,079
on twitter at skepticzone

1496
00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:26,240
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1497
00:58:30,630 --> 00:58:28,480
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1498
00:58:33,829 --> 00:58:30,640
you can also support the skeptic zone

1499
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:33,839
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1500
00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:36,960
podcast is an independent production

1501
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:38,799
the views and opinions expressed on the

1502
00:58:43,589 --> 00:58:41,119
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1503
00:58:45,250 --> 00:58:43,599
of australian skeptics or any other